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My previous video got a ton of views, comments, and overall engagement. I wanted to respond to rebuttals and clarify some points I made as well as delve a little deeper into what Minecraft is really about.
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Ultrakill next?
I think the issue with Minecraft's progression is that its implementation falls flat, in the way that, it doesn't encourage the player to interact with the contents of the world. Minecraft is a survival sandbox game, yet for some reason both of those factors feel largely disconnected between themselves. The game fails at using the survival aspects to extrinsically give goals to the player, that would then guide them into engaging with the sandbox aspect more and thus help the player find their own intrinsic goals. You can't simply throw any player into a world and expect them to continue playing solely through their own intrinsic goals. Some people can find intrinsic goals on their own, but not all people can and a good sandbox needs to subtly guide the player into engaging with the world, so they can then start looking inwards on their own. The easiest way to prove this imbalance is simply by the sheer volume of washed up mechanics and natural constructs that players simply ignore, not to their own fault, as the game's balancing has been horrendous. As per your example with the ocean monument, why go to one when a random and far more common and easier to loot shipwreck can give better loot? And then involving mechanics, look at travel, why make minecarts? Just use boats with ice, it's even cheaper! Why use horses? Just fly around with your elytra, there's zero disadvantages. Why even go caving for loot? Hunting for natural constructs like shipwrecks and trading through villagers gives you an abundance of loot right off the bat. There's so many paths a player can take, which is good! But many of them are strictly worse than others in both yield and efficiency, there's simply nothing unique between the different options. Furthermore, there's even many of the newer additions that are standalone and don't compare to anything else but also don't provide much of anything. Why go through the arduous process of acquiring and hatching a sniffer egg, for 2 flowers that don't even have unique features? Where's the payoff? All in all, Minecraft absolutely has the tools to create a better environment regarding progression and tying it with intrinsic goals, it's always had them, but they have not used them properly to balance the game and its varying ranges of its freedom, often making a lot of additions feel meaningless and thus discourage the player from interacting with the rest of the world.
You know what i'd like to see you cover if you have any history with the franchise?
Dragon Quest Builders.
The youtuber Whitelight had an entire trilogy of videos addressing this issue he released a few years ago. It’s unfortunate to see that bar the Nether update and a few armor trims, Mojang has continued to neglect part of the game that has been a central part of Minecraft since release 1.0
I tried the game several times as vanilla and even modded and just couldn't get into it. For me as a new player it was the lack of in game clues as to what the game can provide and lead me to that made it feel boring. There is nothing in the game that tells you , hey there is this dragon you may want to kill it, or these ruined portals can be converted to active ones but you have to get rid of the glowing obsidian first not just fill in the holes. If you don't look at the wiki or watch videos I imagine most new players wouldn't even have a clue on what to do beyond digging a hole and seeing what you can find. Even something like a village destroyed by dragons breath or survivor notes in your starter inventory giving you a clue of a greater story would be quite useful and may be able to push people beyond digging a hole and seeing what they can find.
Your first video was fantastic. I started working on a modpack without sprint and hunger mechanics. It'll be the first time playing without them since they came out 🙂
what about making guardian farms, if you kill the elder guardians you can build farms which produce tons of XP
I totally disagree about Ocean Monuments… they are great for technical players and casual players alike. Technical players have a massive project to tinker with and make a farm out of for some cool building blocks, XP and food. Casual players get to essentially solve a puzzle with a unique mechanic (how do I beat this without being able to mine?) against some unique mobs, and are rewarded with sponges, gold and maybe an armor trim. Plus the materials to make a Conduit. I think this is more than enough for mid-game progression
i took your previous video as simply being about the vanilla minecraft survival experience, this video is all about minecraft as a whole, asking this question:
is minecraft a satisfactory game? does it accomplish what a video game should have?
i have been playing minecraft again recently, as a veteran looking to be more analytical about the game and taking off nostalgia lenses and i can say with certainty that the answer to these questions is and always has been; from beta all the way to present day: no.
the vanilla experience of the game, be it survival, hardcore, or creative is not very fun. as you said, compared to a game like terraria, heck, compare it to any game and it lacks many things about its gameplay that you'll find in other games that you find fun. as you said it lacks progression. it also lacks visual aesthetics. it lacks in difficulty (this isn't about whether minecraft is too easy, or hard, rather it lacks things expected from both a hard game like dark souls or a casual game like animal crossing)… it lacks a lot of things.
survival is boring and tedious, creative is just virtual legos (not saying legos are boring, but not everyone enjoys legos), and hardcore is just… survival again.
but then i decided to download an adventure map… then i modded the game and played maps designed with them… then i played in servers… then finally i played with friends and did a whole smp thing and that's when i realized what minecraft's strongest point is…
it's a framework. it's an ide. it's a daw. its a canvas. it's a creative outlet.
vanilla minecraft is designed to intentionally be unsatiafying, but satisfying enough that someone will want to stay there and build upon the few things they find interesting, eventually inserting the things they like into minecraft.
minecraft is indeed what you make of it. yeah, it's cliche and cringe, but it's true!
i personally disagreed with you in the previous video. mostly because i dislike terraria, it simply doesn't have things i like with a video game. it has too much extrinsic progression, so i eventually quit the game.
but that's fine!
your ideal minecraft, and indeed the minecraft you play and like has "terraria-like" gameplay or at the very least progression.
my ideal minecraft just happens to be different. it's a social outlet for me. a creative one too. minecraft for me is strongest when i am making funny builds and talking with friends. i imagine everyone elses is too and that's a good thing! that's indeed… the best thing about minecraft.
some play for the core game, some create theory videos because they enjoy intricate stories and worlds, others mod the heck out of the game because programming is their passion.
mine out that which you don't like, and upon that, craft what you will like.
Loved the video! I’d love for you to think about this possibility: Extrinsic motivators over the years have declined in quality, even if they have grown their amount. The desperate need to survive pushed players to build, seek resources, and make fun things. The basic need to survive pushed you to experience most of it. At the end of the day, I think more overarching needs that allow for an insurmountable amount of ways to play is what I think Minecraft needs.
While I generally disagreed with you on some aspects in your videos overall, I think that you make very clear where you are coming from. And I say this as someone who has ADHD and isnt neccesarily the quickest when it comes to complex issues. But when it comes to these kinda things, I think that we generally agree on most of them. Minecraft as you said, is a game for everyone and for what it is capable of doing which I would argue is in large part thanks to the modding scene, is amazing. But as with everything nowadays, people are extremely tribalistic. I dont know where it came from, I dont know if it was this way before already. But from my POV? Its just not fun discussing such things in communities anymore where you know you will just get the same answers over and over again.
Especially the "The game isnt for you I guess". I play a ton of different games and genres. One of them is the militaristic shooter genre. I love playing Arma and DayZ alike so I one day tried out Tarkov. Only to realize that Tarkov despite what everyone said was not a militaristic shooter but a masochism simulator with a queue to get in line. The game could be improved on drastically but point it out to the community (despite two of my gripes literally being implemented later even tho everyone always shot me down when mentioning it) I was ALWAYS just talked back to. Everyone went on the defense for the devs as if they had to defend it with their literal lives from any form of critique. And of course the aforementioned: The game just isnt for you. I literally play DayZ and Arma, what you mean this game isnt for me? Its literally the same thing just on a far smaller scale. The issue here isnt that the game isnt for me, its that the players who play it, pretend that its something that it isnt.
And the same issue I see in Minecraft. There is a TON of denial and tribalistic defense going down. Part of it is because of kids of course but with how many adults act like manchildren nowadays I cant exactly say that its just them. Especially not on forums.
Also? Vintage Story ayo? Very based, been enjoying that for a few years now. You joined in a good time, lots of QOL updates came in the recent updates and the next one looks nice and shiny as well. Hope you enjoy the journey, cause its gonna be a hard one 😛
On the topic of progression, its a little silly how huge of a jump there is between iron and diamond, and how much smaller the jump between diamond and netherite is in comparison. But of course they won't add anything in between… that's too different, and will harm that precious nostalgia, y'know?
That's one of my personal pet peeves about the game. They don't want to make meaningful updates because they're more afraid of angering the nostalgic fans rather than making a well-designed game. And yeah, for every person saying they need a combat update and better progression, there are people cursing Mojang's name because their beloved childhood game is so different (and yeah, its been over a decade, it should be different). I for one quite love a lot of the new features. I wish they weren't so bland and surface level, but there's a lot of untapped potential there, and conceptually they're great.
I really do love hearing your takes. We all love Minecraft and want the best for it. Including better progression- it's sad seeing servers end so fast with everyone getting bored
You know what, I did enjoy this video. And I wanna see what games you explore. Have my sub.
Who knows, maybe I'll find a new game or two to enjoy through this.
I think if minecraft is any one thing, it is a blank (albeit textured) canvas for a players to express themselves, whatever that might look like for them.
The topic of progression though is interesting, Minecraft definately has progression in it but it is demonstrated in several ways and absent in one way in particular:
1) Player progression, this is simply player skill and mastery, as a person spends more time with the game they will improve in the way they play, you mentioned several examples but there are two main pain points in this. For experienced players, they know how to quickly progress through the game systems, they can have full diamond in one day resulting in the system feeling too short. The second issue is for new players, while it is hard to imagine a new player coming to the game with no knowledge if there was such a player, the game does a horrible job of teaching them what can be done. Cobat and Redstone are two game mechanics that are heavily influenced by player knowledge.
2) System progression, which covers the various systems of the game, the tech tree of item progression is one of the true problem areas, tools and equipment have 5 or 6 tiers (some only have one level) which sounds interesting until you realize that leather, gold, and wooden items are best avoided or progressed past as soon as possible meaning that there are fewer options than at first glance, the only other aspect to consider here being enchantments (a system I believe needs an overhaul). The limited number of tiers is made painfully clear to experienced players who can progress to the highest quality of tools very quickly, with the grind and introduction of new mechanics feeling awkward and serving only to artificially delay progression. Other system progression machanics are things like breeding horses, etc…
3) World progression, Minecraft effectively does not have this, not really, I can only think of a couple of ways this is present, the first being the end portals that generate after killing the end dragon and the way that some zombie piglins will sometimes spawn near lit nether portals. Overall, Minecraft world is static, the only changes come from the player(s).
4) One thing the game does not do, currently, is have any form of character progression with two minor caveats, being the experience/level of the character and the unlocking of recipes (a gamerule). A character 300 hours in who has just died (or even just removed all their equipment) is no different to an entirely fresh character. I think this point is why player progression is such a big discussion, if Mojang add character progression it will be a major shift in the design philosophy of the game.
Ultimately, I feel the start to a progression solution for minecraft should look at a few key ways:
1) Unify the mechanics and the systems in the game, for example, why two scutes in game gained in different ways, why is netherite so different from every other upgrade, etc.
2) Drastically improve world progression, going to the nether and the end should have a meaningful change in the overworld, new mobs spawn or otherwise visual differences. World progression should also mean that the further from spawn there will be more fantastical biomes that generat (floating islands, etc). Villages should also improve and grow in response to player interactions. To continue to borrow from Terraria but the generation of new ores would also be great. Another consideration that would add to this is dyanamic seasons.
3) Expand the tech tree, right now it is possible to get diamond gear almost immediately and fully enchanted netherite is not a hard challenge just tedious, the bigger issues though are that with maxed tools you are still fighting mobs that you are fighting with stone tools, it is easier but the only major advantage is that your tools require less maintenance. If world progression saw a major expansion then further tiers of tools could also make sense. Having said that, there is still a need to validate existing tiers of tools ,the hoe, the shovel and the axe – for choppoing wood, have very limited benfits to making an upgrade, never mind the general problems with leather, wood and gold quality tools.
In the end, Minecraft may not be about the progression but it is a game of progression, and it is possible to both love the game and to critique it. As for Intrinsic vs Extrinsic the game does this best when it sets a goal for the player and allows them to do it in whatever way they want, it just doesn't do a great job of acknowledging the players work.
Thanks for the two videos on this topic, some great questions to consider and sorry for the essay.
something i find pretty funny about minecraft's current progression is that it's fundamentally pointless. every semblance of progression that exists in survival mode just allows you to get slightly closer to emulating creative in order to make it easier to build, but if we want to build why not just play creative? building is an art not something we do for bragging rights, the point is to create something and making it awkward to do just makes the process frustrating without changing the result. in survival we have no motivation for doing anything besides rushing the limited gear progression so that we can gather building materials more slowly than creative, fly around more awkwardly, and ignore the mobs that do half a heart or cant even spawn thanks to painful mob proofing, and we use these tools to make a base which we use in order to explore a world with nothing in it. minecraft survival has spent years relying on multiplayer, youtube and servers to be interesting, and if you want a fun sandbox experience there's just better games. if you want to explore and progress with cool bosses play terraria, if you want to chill there's stardew valley, the only thing that makes minecraft stand out is building which is objectively better in creative. there isn't anything wrong with a game being made more fun by co op or a community, or by mods or things we add to the game ourselves, like role playing in skyrim or a challenge run in dark souls, but minecraft leans so heavily on that that it has almost no substance when you take it away. it's a sandbox that gives us total freedom except there's nothing in the sandbox and we don't have any meaningful things to choose from. and the reason why we all complain about it instead of "just playing a different game!" is because minecraft has everything it needs to be a great game with all the things we want, mojang just doesn't have any reason to waste money, time and resources to improve a game which already drowns them in money
Minecraft isn't a game about building, or trading, or anything.
Minecraft just… is. Even with it's entirely avoidable progression, it's still there. Existing.
Minecraft's progression is the worst compared to any other games, they keep adding new features that made the game easier and made some of the old structures less useful or completely useless. Is just a building game and a game where you mess around with your friends at this point if you don't have any mods downloaded
I guess you can play Minecraft if you're a very creative person that have great imagination power and are good at building
Why is modded Minecraft better than vanilla Minecraft? Is Mojang even trying?
I think there are two primary problems with Minecraft
1. Enchanting
2. Lack of end game challenge
I love the concept of enchanting but the actual action of enchanting using the enchanting table is largely obsolete, because villagers will, and in the foreseeable future, will remain a far superior option.
And lastly, once you have all the great gear and totems, you can’t die. Even the bosses become a joke, many players beat multiple withers a day, the warden has helped this and I would love to see an expansion.
That’s just my opinion, and I still love the game, but the end game is far too easy.
I don't think mojang will fix progression anytime soon. You see, for ever since 1.17 they have tried to encourage exploration a lot more, since a lot of minecraft players end up making a base and hardly ever leaving. So, if they want the new thing they have to go looking for it, and they'll run into other features that they aren't as familiar with yet. Basically it's all just decorative bull$#!+ to keep people playing so they can keep building off of the tried and true things already in the game, which is why minecraft probably won't significantly change ever again imo. But that's not entirely bad either lol
I just discovered that I made a modpack that practically reworks the whole of minecraft without even realizing that that's what I was going for. That's funny because I've been making it for years now, on and off.
I've loved the MC videos! Please bring the capitalism's effects on art idea to fruition!
Minecraft is an absolutely amazing game. It truly is one of the greatest forms of expressions in our time. There's also so much good that the game does. A friend of mine is a child therapist, and I've been helping her build a Minecraft world for the kids she works with in order to use the game as a safe space to help work out their issues, and it's coming along quite well. There's also the massive library that people made in Minecraft to help certain pieces of literature and news reports get into countries that would otherwise censor and ban them. Most of all, it has a great community filled with friendly and funny and talented people, who have a tendency to help each other out. In other games I've played, if you ask for help as a beginner, you often get laughed at or called a "filthy casual" or whatever, but never once in my life have I seen that in the Minecraft community. Whenever someone asks for help, people swarm them to give them advice, share their knowledge, and send links to helpful sources for them. Plus the art that these people make is breathtaking. Entire life-size cities made in hardcore survival, adventure maps with incredible writing and creative use of the game's basic tools, parkour maps that people love to play over and over and over again. My personal favorite is an old Minecraft Let's Play back from like, 2012ish, that starts out as a basic guide to the game, but gradually builds up an amazing narrative with twists and turns and an amazing climax that really emphasizes what Minecraft is about. I'm thankful that we all have a game as amazing as Minecraft at our fingertips, flaws included.
Honestly I don't get how people make some of those comments when you stress so much how these criticisms are out of love for the game lol. Also:
RELEASE THE "CAPITALISM SUX" CUT!!! (cuz it do lol)
For a sandbox game, Minecraft sure likes to limit what you’re able to do.
I want to play hytale man, it's gonna be like minecraft the way i want it, adventure and more weapons and armor
Someone got mad at me when i said that in terms of content terraria is way better than minecraft and they said terraria cant be compared to Minecraft cause its a rpg and Minecraft is a sandbox. Man, they are both rpgs AND sandboxes!
Your point on the ocean monument specifically hits home for me. I’ve played on the same Minecraft world since 2018. I sometimes don’t play Minecraft for a few months at a time but when I do it’s on that world. And I’ve never went in an ocean monument in that world. There’s basically nothing I need there except sponges would be useful. But the fact I have double chests upon double chests of sand and an instamine shovel makes the challenge of getting a few sponges not worth it at all for me.
Ive played minecraft for ten+ years.
never stopped, I thought it was funny back in 2019 when people were falling back into it because i had never left once.
that being said, Ive never legitimately gotten a full set of diamond armour or anything close to a mending enchant on anything.
but Ive built castles and towns and countries that span thousands of blocks.
progression is only something you care about if youre an extrinsically motivated player. I think the very concpet of "intrinsically motivated" progression is nonsensical
no???
Its not, the game is gigantic and progression is like an introduction, the game starts when you have Elytra end beacons
I'm trying to enhance Ocean Monuments on my mod just because of this video, so thank you for inspiring this 🗿🚬
So here's my take…
A player who is wholly intrinsically motivated will continue playing Minecraft and have a lot of fun fulfilling their own goals. This is the core idea of the game. Notch implemented it well. No need to change anything about it.
That said, the problem you've identified is 100% correct: the extrinsic side falls flat. What used to be a compelling survival game has shifted to a (metaphorically) one-dimensional RPG lacking any structure.
One of the things I like most about your first video – which may not be obvious to most people – is your comparison of how the player starts in both Minecraft and Terraria. You make a great point about the relative time and effort they have to put into progression to reach the "end" of the game.
Let's assume we're talking about a new player who just picked up the game, who needs extrinsic motivation to continue playing. For such a player, Minecraft works for the first couple days – then it stagnates. On the other hand, Terraria foists story progression on the player whether they're ready or not; the simple passage of time is bound to promote forward momentum along the intended path of progression.
Another way to put it: Minecraft strings out its limited progression by HIDING it from the player. Terraria has (in my opinion) an overwhelming amount of progression it BLASTS in the player's face with a fire hose. And I'm not saying either having simple or long progression is a bad thing. Both are valid design philosophies. The issue for Minecraft is extrinsically motivated players, who need the survival/RPG element, have very little to latch onto. They're not rewarded for exploring, because the mechanics and structure of the game don't even vaguely point the player along a path that ends with beating the Ender dragon. Instead they are rewarded by going on the wiki and essentially following the same process modern speed runners are now completing in under 10 minutes.
If I were to change anything about Minecraft's progression, it would be to link in most of the structures in Minecraft to the path to the End. More controversially, I'd possibly even complicate the path to the Nether.
The thing is, the quest a player goes on to "beat" survival Minecraft (i.e. kill the Ender dragon) should demand they engage with many mechanics of the game. And let's not forget – a single Minecraft world is HUGE. How is exploration and travel not a bigger part of the quest to kill the Ender dragon? And they ALREADY have awesome mechanics to help with this, by the way: cartographer maps and treasure maps.
Players who want to "beat" the game should have to repel a pillager raid, conquer an ocean monument, raid a woodland mansion, and kill the Wither – among other things. And information gained simply by exploring should suggest doing these things is the way to progress. Perhaps smaller structures like desert and jungle temples, monster dungeons, underwater ruins, and treasure chests could hint at the first steps to take along this path.
These aren't exact suggestions. This is simply to show that "beating" survival/story Minecraft could involve much, much more than it does now, and in a way that gives players an introduction to the more intrinsic parts of the game. And it could all be done without placing serious demands on the players who don't need the carrot and stick of progression to motivate their own personal projects. Progressing the story can simply be something that's there for the player to pursue when they've run out of their own ideas for the moment.
Of course, I realize this would massively change things for speedrunning. But I don't actually see that as a problem – it should actually inject new life-blood into the speed running community, with separate "pre-progression update" and "post-progression update" categories. The first implying the sub 10-minute runs we've gotten used to; the second implying a more intense hour-or-more process that is less dependent on the seed, and more dependent on speedrunner skill.
But I've gotten into the weeds at this point.
Minecraft progression could be better; I have my own ideas how to address it. Great video.
So, what are these mods or modpacks you're using?
Why didn’t I know that you couldn’t stack food in beta? 😂
I watched both your videos, and I must say in your first MC progression video you seem to write off Minecraft being a building or automation game without minimal justification. And you are wrong (return the favor of 11:10). Minecraft is about coming up with your own goals, not the developer telling you or implying through progression what you need to do. If you cannot come up with your own goals, then Minecraft is not for you. I think you realized this at the end of this video, but what I will say is that an in-depth progression system actually goes against this philosophy.
A simplistic progression system is good in this case that the game tells you very early on that if you want to look for a curated experience by the developer go play some other games or mod packs. An in-depth progression system that drives the entire game, where the game presents you with a problem that you need to some gear/skill points to solve and then the game presents another one, goes straightly against the player-driven philosophy which Minecraft is built upon, because the player is robbed of making their own goals and aims, and directly thrust into the developer designed goal and way of playing.
Last video was tragically bad. Even gave it a dislike because it deserved it. Glad you were able to clear up your point here and decisively suggest that Minecraft is played how the player wants it to be played.
Minecraft is currently quantitative over qualitative
MOJANG says "we need more because 'XXX update' and marketable plushies" and not "we need to revamp old mechanics or actually remove things that have no use"
like Geek said, you don't really need to go to most dungeons as they give filler blocks and items that make you feel like your progressing, but you aren't. It's filler.
Okay. We'll go again in this one. So beta minecraft I keep seeing this. It's just potions now. But before that, you didn't have to worry about hunger at all. You could just run around forever and never even be hurt if you were smart. No other dangerous dimensions to worry about, severe block limitation, you have to place a billion more light sources.
Every game except for pure JRPG's is about gaining knowledge of the game for a true progression.
Ocean monuments are kind of lame. :'D I haven't tried the axolotl strategy yet.
I do appreciate progression in Terraria, but it gives me caveats. For example. When I beat Minecraft, I feel like I have so much more to do. Since Terraria is so combat based, I farm out whatever rare gear I want, beat the game, build some nice things. (Thanks Khaios) then I just don't play that anymore.
If they ever did add a lot of unique items/flying mounts in the style of Terraria. I would hope they would add characters being able to cross world like Terraria as well. I think that is so amazing.
I mean I wouldn't say I think you hate the game. I would say that you've kind of got stuck in a rut or something.
What I will say is. I just watched your other video and responded to it, and numbers don't lie.
You spent 46 minutes speaking about the negative things you feel about minecraft and a mere 15 mintues on the positive…. So what does that say?
I'm not part of the group you speak of. I literally addressed your entire video one point at a time, agreed on some points, disagreed on others, and even didn't understand some of your reasoning on other things….
Yeah I talked about Minecraft being played however you want to play it in the last video with you. It just all depends on what people prefer. Like the fire spreading, or creeper damage thing. I think it takes away from the game personally to turn them on. If enderman grief my builds, I eventually find the holes and patch them. It's not like they're taking entire terraformed mountain ranges from me.
Yeah I'm not a huge fan of automating things. I've done it in my years, but I prefer it to feel more manual. Especially the older I get. I like to take my time through games now. Once I stopped speed running and rushing games. I learned to immerse myself a lot better. I take in the enviornments.
I beat the Witcher 3 and almost walked the entire game. It's so beautiful. :'D
what's the music starting at 8:16?
If there is something I really hope in an End Update is a new Stronghold, I really want to be hyped by exploring the Stronghold, it really needs an upgrade.
Totally understand. Just hoping for ps vr2 support.
I would personally love new strongholds
I think a simple way to start to fix the challange/reward ratio, is to rework the loot tables for different types of structure chests, so that the more challenging structures give better loot, and the easyer structures give worse loot.
Vintage story mentioned!!!
I feel like mainly the 20yrs old and above demographic is the one who are mostly unsutisfied with the game, its progression and etc. Because after playing for so many years we realised what the flaws of the game are and became having higher standards. Meanwhile, kids dont rly have this level of expectations, they dont rly think too deeply about whats wrong and what could be improved. As a kid, I basically never had problem with the game compared to now, I mean theres a reason why minecraft is the most sold game of all time by a mile compared to other games.